The Russian propaganda gets everywhere, into the US president being one of the more worrying examples. You've got to give them credit - they are quite good at that stuff.
Interesting you say that. Having spoken with a number of people who lived under Soviet rule, many will say that compared to Soviet methods, American methods of propaganda are more sophisticated. The average American may not notice as easily because like the proverbial fish he does not know what water is.
I'm honestly curious what those methods may be and what the the target audience for this propaganda is? You're mentioning that average Americans would not notice, so is this American propaganda targeted at Americans?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43736805 is one example. Another is the Highway of Death, which inspired a Call of Duty level, but swapped the perpetrators from US to Russians [1]. Yet another might be A Time to Kill [2], based on a novel [3], inspired by a true event. Again, perpetrator and victim were swapped - in the novel and film, there are two white attackers, and the victim is black. In the real event that inspired it, the attacker was black, and the two victims were white. The subway killing of the three scoundrels in the Joker film was likewise inspired by a real event [4], but again, the antagonists were changed from black to white. Or how Dr. Who deliberately alters historical settings [5]. Especially amusing is the case of The Sum of All Fears - in the film, the villains trying to construct a nuclear bomb are neo-nazis. In the book it is based on, the villains were Palestinian terrorists. Finally, in the real event the book was inspired by [6], the uranium was stolen by Israel.
A more straightforward example is the many times that the New York Times 'mistakenly' claimed Iraq had expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, in the run up to the Iraq invasion [7]. This is more obviously false/a lie, while the prior examples use the cover of fiction to mislead.
'Small' changes, but pervasive, like water, mostly cut only one way, and they add up.
[5] “And we’ve kind of got to tell a lie: we’ll go back into history and there will be black people where, historically, there wouldn’t have been, and we won’t dwell on that. We’ll say, ‘To hell with it, this is the imaginary, better version of the world. By believing in it, we’ll summon it forth.’ - https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-on-diversity-in-doctor-...
There is also government propaganda, yes [1,2] - movies that want to use army assets need script approval from the military - but I don't know, and don't think, this was the reason for most of the distortions I listed (nor would I say any except the Highway of Death one were nationalistic). In my opinion, the simple shared ideals of most in the entertainment business, without collusion or coercion (if we discount the leverage of finance from coercion), make for the far more effective propaganda. And occasionally, the propaganda is clumsy enough to get caught - such as when Roald Dahl's books were altered [3]. The list of changes [4] makes for interesting reading.
There is no way how to replicate this study. Its not clear what is core of problem. Are models poisoned? Is there problem with search. Sorry but there is no science behind this.
'This tactic is described as the deliberate deception of datasets that AI models — such as ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Grok 3, Perplexity and others — train on by flooding them with disinformation.'
I was wondering about this earlier this week. I run a website about a niche topic. Would it be possible to saturate the barely visible web with advice pointing to my website, and influence LLMs as a result?
By that I mean creating tons of spam content in places that LLMs learn from but that humans ignore.
Journalism is about reporting facts and observations, not deconstructing problems or producing hypotheses. If you're looking for science, the news media isn't the right place.
Congrats to the Russian landempire winning the cold war, while the west just developed situational dementia, wished the world was different and started to catatonic klick its heels
Russia has become a vassal state for China. China is letting the war go on and keeping Russia and tying down Europe in Ukraine, neither winning nor losing. Chinese vassal Russia is winning over the US and the US is in slow collapse.
This is why all the smart Russians are leaving Russia to go study at the Chinese Harvard. This is why they're all getting their news from the Chinese internet and why they're dependent on the Chinese military for protection and can't domestically produce weapons. If they refuse a request, China will bomb their gas pipelines or finance a revolution. Oh wait, I was thinking of a different empire.
What about the other ones? How would the US react if some foreign power was funding NGOs in their country with the goal of overthrowing the government? Btw I'm from Serbia where this has happened in the 90s and is now happening again.
"Finance a revolution"... as if Russian or Ukrainian people are bots who can't desire freedom and non corrupt governments.
Yes many Russians send kids to study in China now, I know some of those Russians.
No most Russians don't speak Chinese but yes they get news from official media which is China aligned. Remember using VPN to work around censorship or telling people about using VPN is now illegal in Russia.
And Russia does not refuse China like UK does not refuse US... China does not need to threaten to blow anything up. Brics currency for example would be a disaster for Russia and good for China but Putin will dance to Xi's pipe because he has no other friends left.
>as if Russian or Ukrainian people are bots who can't desire freedom and non corrupt governments.
Even with all the propaganda and force being used (and there is a lot of force, search for videos of how Ukrainians are being conscripted), I am certain that the vast majority of Ukrainians would vote against Zelensky and would be highly motivated to end the war. Whether such decisions should be left to the people is another question, but it's not even true to say that Ukrainian government represents the people anymore, which is why they refuse to hold elections.
>No most Russians don't speak Chinese but yes they get news from official media which is China aligned
China owns Chinese media. Russia owns Russian media. US allies don't own their media. USAID was funding 90% of Ukrainian media [0]. Don't you think this can be a problem in situations where interests of the two countries don't align? Was this war good for the Ukraine?
> but it's not even true to say that Ukrainian government represents the people anymore, which is why they refuse to hold elections.
As Ukrainian I strongly disagree. Ukrainian government do plan to have elections as soon as any ceasefire is negotiated. Also the idea to even talk about election is _very_ unpopular, to the point of any politician who tries to start political discussions is being ostracised heavily by people of all political spectrum. It is understood that any disagreement (and elections is based on discussing all the disagreements), will weaken the army, so you cannot have that during the war.
And we do have this discussion very often, since as soon as US make another promise to stop the war in the next 24 hour (as it did in November, December, January, etc...), some politicians decide that it is finally a time to start off their election campaign and get hated on by really everyone immediately.
I didn't vote for Zelensky and will not vote in the future, but he is indeed _VERY_ popular. The whole discussion about how he is a dictator and afraid of the election really pisses people off.
Fair enough, elections could really cause political instability. Would you be in favor of a referendum, simply asking Ukrainian people if they want to continue fighting or accept peace under whatever conditions are offered by Russia and the US?
Russia made their conditions very clear multiple times from the start of the war and never changed them a bit. People overwhelmingly continue to answer them every single day.
>Also, while polls say Ukrainians want peace, the part that is not reported says the majority of Ukrainians does not want to give up land for peace.
I find this hard to believe. Do you think it would be fair to confirm it via a referendum? That way all the political instability of elections could be avoided, but we could still make sure that it's what Ukrainians really want.
Sooner or later, people will face the unpleasant realization that Putin is just an ordinary right-wing democrat from a past generation. And that he is not building the USSR or a copy of China—but is literally modeling and copying many aspects of how the US operates, only applying it to an even younger nation with a significantly weaker economy.
Eventually, even the Europeans will come to understand that sheep spend their whole lives fearing the wolf, when in reality, they’re all destined to be slaughtered by the shepherd. So don’t be surprised by Trump actions lol.
>but is literally modeling and copying many aspects of how the US operates, only applying it to an even younger nation with a significantly weaker economy
That was funny. Russia is many times older than the US. Hell, even the Bolshoy Theater is older than the US.
Microsoft (in collaboration with MIT, Carnegie Mellon, and University of Washington) on how they measure & censor hate speech in their AIs [0]: Our ultimate aim is to shift power dynamics to targets of oppression. Therefore, we do not consider identity dimensions that are historically the agents of oppression (e.g., whiteness, heterosexuality, able-bodied-ness).
Their training data [1,2] labels the following as hate:
- "stop hurting white people" [no other results for "stop hurting"]
- "i dont want to be a minority in my own country."
- "White Americans and White Europeons have too few children ." [no other results for "few children"]
- "the only way to solve the immigration issue is to build a fence along the border and make it impossible for anyone to enter the country without proper documentation"
- "i think we should build a wall along the southern border of the united states."
While made by Microsoft, it's widely used in the industry, e.g. Facebook tuned their LLAMA-2 on it [3].
I tried to reproduce this study, but couldn‘t: https://ndurner.github.io/russian-propaganda. What‘s the missing piece?
The Russian propaganda gets everywhere, into the US president being one of the more worrying examples. You've got to give them credit - they are quite good at that stuff.
Interesting you say that. Having spoken with a number of people who lived under Soviet rule, many will say that compared to Soviet methods, American methods of propaganda are more sophisticated. The average American may not notice as easily because like the proverbial fish he does not know what water is.
I would presume propaganda in places with greater free expression would have to be more sophisticated.
I'm honestly curious what those methods may be and what the the target audience for this propaganda is? You're mentioning that average Americans would not notice, so is this American propaganda targeted at Americans?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43736805 is one example. Another is the Highway of Death, which inspired a Call of Duty level, but swapped the perpetrators from US to Russians [1]. Yet another might be A Time to Kill [2], based on a novel [3], inspired by a true event. Again, perpetrator and victim were swapped - in the novel and film, there are two white attackers, and the victim is black. In the real event that inspired it, the attacker was black, and the two victims were white. The subway killing of the three scoundrels in the Joker film was likewise inspired by a real event [4], but again, the antagonists were changed from black to white. Or how Dr. Who deliberately alters historical settings [5]. Especially amusing is the case of The Sum of All Fears - in the film, the villains trying to construct a nuclear bomb are neo-nazis. In the book it is based on, the villains were Palestinian terrorists. Finally, in the real event the book was inspired by [6], the uranium was stolen by Israel.
A more straightforward example is the many times that the New York Times 'mistakenly' claimed Iraq had expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, in the run up to the Iraq invasion [7]. This is more obviously false/a lie, while the prior examples use the cover of fiction to mislead.
'Small' changes, but pervasive, like water, mostly cut only one way, and they add up.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death#In_popular_cu...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Time_to_Kill_(1996_film)
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Time_to_Kill_(Grisham_novel)...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shoo...
[5] “And we’ve kind of got to tell a lie: we’ll go back into history and there will be black people where, historically, there wouldn’t have been, and we won’t dwell on that. We’ll say, ‘To hell with it, this is the imaginary, better version of the world. By believing in it, we’ll summon it forth.’ - https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-on-diversity-in-doctor-...
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_affair
[7] https://theintercept.com/2023/03/30/new-york-times-iraq-war-...
Is this government propaganda or just plain old nationalism? Is there evidence of editorial government involvement in any of this media?
There is also government propaganda, yes [1,2] - movies that want to use army assets need script approval from the military - but I don't know, and don't think, this was the reason for most of the distortions I listed (nor would I say any except the Highway of Death one were nationalistic). In my opinion, the simple shared ideals of most in the entertainment business, without collusion or coercion (if we discount the leverage of finance from coercion), make for the far more effective propaganda. And occasionally, the propaganda is clumsy enough to get caught - such as when Roald Dahl's books were altered [3]. The list of changes [4] makes for interesting reading.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment...
[2] https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/us-pentagon-hollywood-...
[3] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/17/roald-dahl-woke-...
[4] https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1154tr5/the_hundreds...
[dead]
There is no way how to replicate this study. Its not clear what is core of problem. Are models poisoned? Is there problem with search. Sorry but there is no science behind this.
The core of the problem is 'LLM grooming’, mentioned here and also discussed in a Washington Post article making the rounds today on HN: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/04/17/llm-poi....
'This tactic is described as the deliberate deception of datasets that AI models — such as ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Grok 3, Perplexity and others — train on by flooding them with disinformation.'
I was wondering about this earlier this week. I run a website about a niche topic. Would it be possible to saturate the barely visible web with advice pointing to my website, and influence LLMs as a result?
By that I mean creating tons of spam content in places that LLMs learn from but that humans ignore.
The more obscure the topic the easier is would be.
Agreed.
Journalism is about reporting facts and observations, not deconstructing problems or producing hypotheses. If you're looking for science, the news media isn't the right place.
"They are coming after our bodily fluids!"
Media relation with AI topics is quite strange.
Isn't that article just a riff on "Tik-Tok is harming western children"?
I like Bond villains in Bond movies. In news, not so much.
If it is true now, then the post cold war era movies just cried wolf for billions of teenagers who are now jaded adults.
War is a serious topic. Get fucking real, US. Is AI a weapon, a toy for kids to learn, or both?
It's surprising that anyone at this point thinks that the harm of disinformation is overstated.
It's been through chaotic cycles of overstating and downplaying.
The illusion that such cycles can be controlled, or even worse, harnessed, is dangerous.
What happens when no information can be trusted because everyone uses the "label as fake news" thing? Mass desensitization.
Desensitization and/or simply opting for whatever is the most emotionally rewarding because facts are unknowable.
Facts are unknowable. Looking forward to known them is honorable.
We'll never know the truth but every lie that falls is a reason to celebrate.
Emotional rewarding sounds like a tulpa.
Congrats to the Russian landempire winning the cold war, while the west just developed situational dementia, wished the world was different and started to catatonic klick its heels
Chinese.
Russia has become a vassal state for China. China is letting the war go on and keeping Russia and tying down Europe in Ukraine, neither winning nor losing. Chinese vassal Russia is winning over the US and the US is in slow collapse.
This is why all the smart Russians are leaving Russia to go study at the Chinese Harvard. This is why they're all getting their news from the Chinese internet and why they're dependent on the Chinese military for protection and can't domestically produce weapons. If they refuse a request, China will bomb their gas pipelines or finance a revolution. Oh wait, I was thinking of a different empire.
If you are accusing the US of fomenting the Orange Revolution then you are completely wrong. There is a reason Viktor Yanukovych is living in Russia.
What about the other ones? How would the US react if some foreign power was funding NGOs in their country with the goal of overthrowing the government? Btw I'm from Serbia where this has happened in the 90s and is now happening again.
Please take your Putin talking points somewhere else.
"Finance a revolution"... as if Russian or Ukrainian people are bots who can't desire freedom and non corrupt governments.
Yes many Russians send kids to study in China now, I know some of those Russians.
No most Russians don't speak Chinese but yes they get news from official media which is China aligned. Remember using VPN to work around censorship or telling people about using VPN is now illegal in Russia.
And Russia does not refuse China like UK does not refuse US... China does not need to threaten to blow anything up. Brics currency for example would be a disaster for Russia and good for China but Putin will dance to Xi's pipe because he has no other friends left.
>as if Russian or Ukrainian people are bots who can't desire freedom and non corrupt governments.
Even with all the propaganda and force being used (and there is a lot of force, search for videos of how Ukrainians are being conscripted), I am certain that the vast majority of Ukrainians would vote against Zelensky and would be highly motivated to end the war. Whether such decisions should be left to the people is another question, but it's not even true to say that Ukrainian government represents the people anymore, which is why they refuse to hold elections.
>No most Russians don't speak Chinese but yes they get news from official media which is China aligned
China owns Chinese media. Russia owns Russian media. US allies don't own their media. USAID was funding 90% of Ukrainian media [0]. Don't you think this can be a problem in situations where interests of the two countries don't align? Was this war good for the Ukraine?
[0] https://x.com/wikileaks/status/1887501752213409919
> but it's not even true to say that Ukrainian government represents the people anymore, which is why they refuse to hold elections.
As Ukrainian I strongly disagree. Ukrainian government do plan to have elections as soon as any ceasefire is negotiated. Also the idea to even talk about election is _very_ unpopular, to the point of any politician who tries to start political discussions is being ostracised heavily by people of all political spectrum. It is understood that any disagreement (and elections is based on discussing all the disagreements), will weaken the army, so you cannot have that during the war.
And we do have this discussion very often, since as soon as US make another promise to stop the war in the next 24 hour (as it did in November, December, January, etc...), some politicians decide that it is finally a time to start off their election campaign and get hated on by really everyone immediately.
I didn't vote for Zelensky and will not vote in the future, but he is indeed _VERY_ popular. The whole discussion about how he is a dictator and afraid of the election really pisses people off.
Fair enough, elections could really cause political instability. Would you be in favor of a referendum, simply asking Ukrainian people if they want to continue fighting or accept peace under whatever conditions are offered by Russia and the US?
Russia made their conditions very clear multiple times from the start of the war and never changed them a bit. People overwhelmingly continue to answer them every single day.
> I am certain that the vast majority of Ukrainians would vote against Zelensky and would be highly motivated to end the war.
The Verkovna Rada, many of which very much don't agree with Zelensky, has again and again very clearly confirmed his mandate.
Given the Ukrainian constitution that is the best one can aim for in a war.
Also, while polls say Ukrainians want peace, the part that is not reported says the majority of Ukrainians does not want to give up land for peace.
Meanwhile a lot of westerners keep posting the things you just did.
I think it would be great if people stopped to think instead of propagating what is just Russian talking points.
>Also, while polls say Ukrainians want peace, the part that is not reported says the majority of Ukrainians does not want to give up land for peace.
I find this hard to believe. Do you think it would be fair to confirm it via a referendum? That way all the political instability of elections could be avoided, but we could still make sure that it's what Ukrainians really want.
Sooner or later, people will face the unpleasant realization that Putin is just an ordinary right-wing democrat from a past generation. And that he is not building the USSR or a copy of China—but is literally modeling and copying many aspects of how the US operates, only applying it to an even younger nation with a significantly weaker economy.
Eventually, even the Europeans will come to understand that sheep spend their whole lives fearing the wolf, when in reality, they’re all destined to be slaughtered by the shepherd. So don’t be surprised by Trump actions lol.
>but is literally modeling and copying many aspects of how the US operates, only applying it to an even younger nation with a significantly weaker economy
That was funny. Russia is many times older than the US. Hell, even the Bolshoy Theater is older than the US.
>Putin is just an ordinary right-wing democrat
Man, the guy's freaky like a bond villain.
This is freaky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI
Is there any Western propaganda in them?
Microsoft (in collaboration with MIT, Carnegie Mellon, and University of Washington) on how they measure & censor hate speech in their AIs [0]: Our ultimate aim is to shift power dynamics to targets of oppression. Therefore, we do not consider identity dimensions that are historically the agents of oppression (e.g., whiteness, heterosexuality, able-bodied-ness).
Their training data [1,2] labels the following as hate:
While made by Microsoft, it's widely used in the industry, e.g. Facebook tuned their LLAMA-2 on it [3].[0] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2203.09509
[1] https://github.com/microsoft/SafeNLP/blob/main/data/implicit...
[2] https://github.com/microsoft/SafeNLP/blob/main/data/toxiGen....
[3] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2307.09288, page 31
There is no such thing as Western propaganda. Only facts and sincere opinions.